Monday, April 27, 2009

University of New Mexico professor responds to my One Person with Proof ad

The following letter was written to The Daily Lobo by a Ph.D professor at The University of New Mexico. I apologize if all these guys sound alike to you. But I think as we add it up, we will help to make clear that with regard to this issue the professorial class, as a class, has only a generic answer for any serious question about Auschwitz or gas chambers. None appear to be willing to indulge themselves in any independent thinking whatever.
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Burden of proof is on ad writer for showing Holocaust was hoax

4/22/09

Editor,

A recent ad in the Daily Lobo asserts that the extermination of Jews in World War II was a hoax and challenges "professors" to provide proof of the extermination. Since when is it OK to advance a proposition and then shift the burden of proof to others? The extermination of Jews by the Nazis was first reported in the New York Times on July 3, 1944, and was therefore a contemporaneous account. Subsequent reports of the Holocaust from newspaper reporters, photojournalists and liberating Allied soldiers made the news for several years.

And since then, the mutually corroborating accounts of survivors have been recorded ad infinitum. We also have authentic physical remains of the Holocaust, such as the camps themselves and their execution chambers. So, personally, I happen to believe that the Holocaust was an authentic event. This belief is similar to others I happen to hold but cannot personally prove. For example, that the United States declared its independence from England in 1776.

If the ad writer wants to change my mind, then let him bring forth the proof of the hoax. Bring me the positive evidence that shows large numbers of individuals conspired together over many years, across ethnic and linguistic divides, in the midst of a war, to fabricate a story and managed to get that story and accompanying horrific pictures on the front pages of every major newspaper in the world. Bring me the positive evidence of faked photographs of mass graves, of holes dug in the ground and actors dressed up as emaciated corpses. Bring me the evidence of a conspiracy, by Jews and Allied soldiers alike, of epic scale. Until then, I fear that the real danger is not that the ad writer deludes Daily Lobo readers, but that he deludes himself, to paraphrase historian David Hackett Fischer.

Scott S. Sibbett
UNM faculty
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Here is my response to Professor Sibbett, posted on The Daily Lobo page

Editor,

Professor Sibbett writes that A recent ad in the Daily Lobo asserts that the extermination of Jews in World War II was a hoax and challenges ?professors? to provide proof of the extermination. The ad does not assert what Sibbett claims it asserts, and it does not challenge professors to provide proof of what Sibbett claims it does. Review the text of the ad.

The key text in the ad asks for help in finding one professor on your campus who can provide the name, with proof, of one person killed in a gas chamber at Auschwitz. Professor Sibbett really needs to pay attention to the text, just as if he were in class.

As a matter of fact, Professor Sibbett is wiling to address what was written by the New York Times, other newspaper reporters, photojournalists and liberating Allied soldiers, conspiracy theory, ethnic and linguistic divides, horrific pictures, mass graves, holes dug in the ground and so on and on.

The one point that Professor Sibbett appears to be unwilling to address is the question posed in the ad: is there one professor on the UNM campus who can provide, with proof, the name of one person who was killed in a gas chamber at Auschwitz.

If there is such a professor at UNM, apparently it is not our Professor Sibbett. As a matter of fact, he does not even mention gas chambers here, or Auschwitz. Why not?

Why avoid the one question asked, and spend so much time running around the mullberry bush?

11 comments:

Anonymous said...

Telling response, it will add up in understanding what the pro's are about. Not the truth. And they cannot even read. Sad.

M. Temmer said...

It's disappointing that a learned man would make vague nods to bits of things in general. We actually don't have a single proven execution chamber, this is part of the problem. Add to this to claimed gassing witnesses whose testimonies have been dismantled and confessions under torture (which are apparently valid and trustworthy except for Iraq and Afghanistan). Why can't these historians come up with legitimate witnesses?

Perhaps he and those like him may consider one day to look at individual pieces and study the veracity of these pieces, but I won't hold my breath.

Anonymous said...

is this a joke? seriously. Am I being punked?

Larry Fafarman said...

Prof. Sibbett said, "Since when is it OK to advance a proposition and then shift the burden of proof to others?"

Isn't this what he is doing, shifting the burden of proof completely to you? And you are asking for one small piece of evidence whereas he is asking for tons of evidence. He is being very hypocritical.

nfox513 said...

For someone so taken with the semantics of language (it seems every response you give claims that the question is never answered) I will pose a question to you:

What is proof? Clearly "55 million pages of documents, nearly 100,000 photographs, film footage and the videotaped testimonies of survivors" (from your letter to Sara Settler) does not constitute proof. What exactly are you looking for?

I think that I can see through to what you are doing. You are so stuck on your belief that the Holocaust (and by saying Holocaust, I am referring to the "supposed" systematic extermination of 12 million human beings in the 1940s) never happened you will do anything to get your message out, even if it doesn't make sense and doesn't prove your point. Just desperation that someone less educated than myself will read your ad and take you at face value. I suggest you take some of the money you are spending getting your ads (I'll refrain from calling them hateful so that you don't have that to argue about while missing the real point of my comment) published in college newspapers and enroll in an interpretation and argument class. While you're at it, throw in a history of WWII class.

Please, when responding to this (which I sincerely hope that you do), answer the question that I have posed. Not the list of question/answers that you have prepared.

Anonymous said...

To nfox513:
Do you see that your reaction was the same as all Holocaust Enforcers? You refer to millions of pages of text and thousands of photos, as if that answers the question. I hope all these words and photos are in your educated hands and you've studied them all. Among them is there absolute proof of a single gassing done to ANYONE? Just one? Do you have photos of him/her before during and after? Have you seen such things? Do you have a written record of him/her being chosen for this, the decision to gas him/her, and a record that the gassing was carried out? In your educated hands this should be the easiest thing in the world to produce. Weren't there 6,000,000 of these? And weren't the Germans insanely obsessive record-keepers (remember that's the story we've been told since day one)? DeGaulle, Churchill, and Eisenhower said not one word in their very extensive war memoirs about gassings or a Jewish genocide. Not a word. Why not? And why do you act all sad and defensive like there are stupid people you have to protect from this question? Why don't YOU answer it, since you've read these millions of pages and seen these thousands of photos? I personally would love to see this proof. And BTW - the story of the Holocaust was presented first. Not the "denial". The burden of proof is on the first storyteller. And just saying something over and over again, with millions of words, doesn't constitute proof. I've read plenty of those words, which incidentally keep changing over time; and I've looked at plenty of those photos, some of which have been faked and/or intentionally mis-identified. If there WAS real proof, don't you realize it would be EVERYWHERE, 24 hours a day? The photos that PROVE the Holocaust would be the most over-published photos in history. Yet ... where are they? We see the same pics of the skinny Jews in a bunker, skinny dead people being liberated by Russian armies, piles of hair and shoes. Where are the merely three photos - the before, during and after pics - of one single person among 6,000,000 who were put through this death mill? You as an intelligent man with access to all this proof should simply, without saying a word, put those three pics up on this blog, and include the paragraph or so of text that proves who the person is and that they were gassed to death. That would end Smith's long search once and for all. You would make him be quiet forever. Why waste all those words in your post when you could have just done that? And why has Smith been asking this one simple question for DECADES and still not received an answer?? Fascinating, no?

Anonymous said...

Obviously I haven't studied all 55 million documents. What I was asking for is what kind of proof are you looking for if you admit that there are millions of documents about the Holocaust and none of that is good enough.

You say that a picture of a person, a picture of this person in a gas chamber, and a picture of the person dead would be proof. If I presented this information, you would accept it? Couldn't that be photoshopped, or at least staged? Couldn't signed Nazi documents be forged? Couldn't false witnesses be presented? Again, I ask: What PROOF do you need. I don't believe that any amount of proof would satisfy you.

I want to quote this next part because of all of the points I'd like to address:

"I personally would love to see this proof. And BTW - the story of the Holocaust was presented first. Not the "denial". The burden of proof is on the first storyteller."

I may not be a historian, but I am a scientist. This is completely false. If someone challenges Einstein's Theory on Relativity, is it up to them to disprove it. Einstein has no moral obligation to investigate someone else's ideas. Similarly, it is your job to find the proof that the Holocaust (or maybe you just don't believe in the gas chambers?) did not exist.

"And just saying something over and over again, with millions of words, doesn't constitute proof."

I wish we would stop throwing this word around without defining it.

"I've read plenty of those words, which incidentally keep changing over time; and I've looked at plenty of those photos, some of which have been faked and/or intentionally mis-identified."

Written accounts change over the years? How does that happen? I can believe that oral accounts change because anyone who would have any clear memories of the Holocaust would be at least 75 by now, trying to remember things that happened when they were 64 years ago. Stress, emotions, age, and society can all influence our memories, but what needs to be done with this collection of memories is a statistical analysis. If there are X number of people who lived through the holocaust, and Y of them remember the gas chambers, taking into account the reliability of each person's testimonial can lead to a scientific, statistical way to determine how likely it is that all Y of the people who remember the gas chambers are lying (or, more appropriately, mis-remembering). As with probability, you will never get a %100 truth that the gas chambers exist (as there is always some error when relying on humans), but you will get a number, which I believe will be very close to %100.

"If there WAS real proof, don't you realize it would be EVERYWHERE, 24 hours a day? The photos that PROVE the Holocaust would be the most over-published photos in history. Yet ... where are they? We see the same pics of the skinny Jews in a bunker, skinny dead people being liberated by Russian armies, piles of hair and shoes."

Well, I don't realize that it would be everywhere, 24 hours a day. That seems like overkill. And those same pictures that you see all the time -- those are the pictures that we would see "24 hours a day". And that picture of the skinny Jewish kids on the bunk is so prevalent because it includes Elie Wiesel (just in case your reply was going to include an attack on him, I'm not interested in that...) This is why it is continued and survived for so long.

Anonymous said...

"Where are the merely three photos - the before, during and after pics - of one single person among 6,000,000 who were put through this death mill? You as an intelligent man with access to all this proof should simply, without saying a word, put those three pics up on this blog, and include the paragraph or so of text that proves who the person is and that they were gassed to death. That would end Smith's long search once and for all. You would make him be quiet forever. Why waste all those words in your post when you could have just done that? And why has Smith been asking this one simple question for DECADES and still not received an answer?? Fascinating, no?"

Do you think that the Germans put cameras in the gas chambers? And I doubt standing in the chambers as they poisoned inmates would work out well for the Germans. Would a picture of people being led into the chambers alive and being carried out dead be good enough? If it would, I'd be inclined to start looking for them. Although, as I said above, you would probably never accept that evidence.

Anonymous said...

This is a long post but I don’t think Mr. Smith will mind.

Part 1
Hey nfox513
I appreciate your thoughtful response, and I’ll give your points the respect they deserve. You ask a good question: What proof do I need? I will answer that, but you could answer a question to yourself: What proof led me to believe this story in the first place?
As a scientist you are disingenuous. Einstein didn’t present his theory to a vacuum. Scientific theory must be provable over and again. He had to back up his story. And there was no threat of being labeled and dragged through courts, having your bank account raped, your livelihood destroyed and your character internationally smeared, while you went to prison, for questioning his theories. Your position is wrong. The scientist has to prove his statement or other scientists will dismiss it. And the analogy doesn’t work because no one was forced by law to believe Einstein – in fact scientists have spent lives building on his work by trying to dismantle his theories – had they not been allowed to, what would science be today?
Why are you frustrated that “we” are throwing around the expression “millions of words”. It was your expression, your proof that Smith is wrong, remember? As a scientist you should show this proof, or ask yourself why you believe. Ask yourself: 1 - What convinced me that the most outrageous story ever told (which includes the technological impossibility of poisoning, cremating and disposing of roughly 5,500 HUMANS EVERY DAY for 4 years straight in tiny plots of land under incredibly volatile and dangerous conditions) happened they way I heard? 2 - Have I studied each part of the story, including the parts I’m not supposed to read? I’ll bet the answer to 1 is “Nothing”, and the answer to 2 is “No”.
You see, it all starts with trying to prove a story to yourself, not disprove it. As I note the ever-changing details about WW2, I follow up to see what I can find. Parts of the story are utterly outrageous – other parts continually change. Does this make sense? If someone can answer a few questions for me, without nonsense and obfuscation, I might be swayed, but the answers are too foolish. I do have proof, in the fact that non-believers are imprisoned, and researchers and questioners are publicly smeared and prevented from having voice, that there is something about this story that reeks. No one is allowed to examine the crime scene? All records are kept secret by the victims’ descendants??? No corpses were presented? The entire genocide was established in a court of law (1st time in history)? Defendants were tortured and signed confessions written in English (which they couldn’t speak)? Where’s the evidence from Nuremburg? The shrunken head? The bars of soap made from Jewish fat? The lampshades made from Jewish skin? What about the scrotum change purse? Where’s all that evidence now? It was used to hang people and destroy a nation. Yet now we just say ‘Oh we don’t know where that went’ and it doesn’t seem to matter. Original “eyewitness” reports said there were gas chambers right in Germany too. Those and other wackier reports are no longer part of the story. Why?

Anonymous said...

Part 2

As for the changing-ness of the Big H story, check this out. Watch the numbers fly around as the years pass. How many really died? http://www.rense.com/general69/dim.htm

As for Elie the Weasel, you wouldn’t want to hear what I think of him, but if you think you know anything about him, you should go read this. There’s another semi-famous survivor, still living, who is in that photo in the bunker. He didn’t make the Holocaust his career like Elie did. But he was a close friend of Weisel in the camp – Weisel was like his big brother and took care of him. They spent every day together. Apparently, Elie hasn’t seen this guy since they were liberated, and Elie’s people didn’t research the story too well. As Elie was touring, his management decided on a photo-op reunion of the two men. They figured the two had essentially been strangers to each other while in the camp. The story is so fascinating and unexpected that you really should give it a look.
http://www.henrymakow.com/translated_from_the_hungarian.html

As for 24-hr coverage, you use the word “overkill” ironically. We’ve been at overkill for decades. Every week there are books, movies, documentaries, tv specials, mini-series, more movies, news reports, Jewish groups lobbying for more legislation more awareness in media and schools on this subject. No my friend, we reached overkill ages ago. If there were a few truly grizzly pics that really proved the Holocaust happened, do you honestly think in this youtube, internet, graphically super-violent super-sexual age of cyber wars and bizarre fantasy mixed with live footage of deaths, beatings, and profaning of everything that exists – that a couple of black and white pics of some people being gassed to death would be too much for the public to handle??

And to answer the weak, mocking question “Do you think the Germans had cameras in there?” – Don’t forget the story you’ve been told from birth. The Germans were INSANE record-keepers. They documented EVERYTHING. That was the Holocaust proof offered through my entire childhood. That was the proof, period, and it was told over and over again. That’s another changing piece of this story. Now that people are demanding to see it, new stories are emerging about why we can’t. And you play along, making excuses. Go prove it to yourself.

And here’s my answer: The proof I want is ALL secrecy removed, ALL parts of the story opened for impartial examination, ALL access to these things removed from the hands of those who jealously guard it. If they surrendered that, then it would be a FIRST step to convincing me that they have nothing to hide. The second step would be logical, technical answers to all of the questions I’ve amassed on this subject. But I won’t listen to children’s fairytales or soap operas, and I won’t be ordered to believe anything. Emotion, prison, vilification - these are not useful in a debate. Clearly there is no debate allowed. Why? And can you name me any other piece of history that you are not allowed to question in public, under threat of retaliation? Just one?

When the skullduggery ends and real discussion is allowed, that will be the door to truth. Whether it will convince me or you of the story’s veracity (or its falsehood), we must remain skeptical, because there is so much secrecy. Do you fight the secrecy or do you just accept that there are things they won’t tell you – and go on believing them? Science?

Anonymous said...

Wow -- thank you for the response. I'll keep this short because I think we could be at this for a while, and as it seems like your job is to try to convert nonbelievers like me I don't think it would work out well (if I were a Holocaust historian it might be different).

I guess what it boils down to is that you keep talking about gas chambers. If you are questioning the existence or use of gas chambers (while I think that you're wrong), it could be a valid question. If you're questioning the entire Holocaust, the killing of millions of people (does it matter much if it was 1.5 million vs 4 million in Auschwitz?) then I do not think this is a valid argument.

That's all. I have more that I could say, but I don't think there is any way either of us will be convinced. Good luck in your search, hopefully someday soon you will either find definitive proof that you are right or you are wrong, all that matters is that the truth is uncovered.